Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: What's up, founders? And welcome to the In Demand podcast where we talk all about how to troubleshoot growth for your PLG SaaS. I'm your co host, Asia Arangio, the CEO and founder of DemandMaven.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Kim Talarczyk, client services manager at Demand Maven, where we help SaaS companies reach their toughest growth milestones.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: All right, Kim, let's get into it.
I'll give, I'll give more context. So I'm a little more than a year into my fractional CMO gig. And for context too, like I'm, when I say fractional, I'm a little bit more than part time. So I'm not a full time employee. It's still through Demand maven. I'm not 40 hours or 45 hours a week or whatever on my, on, on this project.
It's more like, it's actually a little bit more than like 20 to 25 hours. I think originally the scope, this, this is what tends to happen with like fractional CMO retainers. You always scope out 15 to 20 hours a week or whatever, and then it ends up being like 30.
But that's just the name of the game, I feel like. And, and part of the expectation is that like, you set the bar kind of low, knowing that you'll probably deliver more. And also, too, it's seasonal. There are seasons where I spend more time and there are seasons where I spend less time, but it all balances out in the wash, I think, in the end.
And my team is small. So I have, let's see, I have four.
No, sorry, three.
I'll call them like direct reports. I report to the CEO. And then there are a couple of indirect reports that I have. People who, like, I don't necessarily manage them or their time, but they, but they, they're working on things adjacent to the work that we do. And so we end up having to like, they end up being like an indirect report.
And it's been a lot of fun. So I would say, like the first year has really been setting the foundation. And when I think about like 20, 25, so much of it was really understanding the knobs to turn, so to speak, in the business and really understanding what are the levers that we can pull and if we were to pull them, what does that, like, how does that perform, what does it look like? And we've learned a lot, like, we've learned a lot about levers that work and, and also levers that don't work. And then also levers that we need to pull better than what we're pulling right now. But they do work technically, but we're struggling with pulling them. And so my job for the last year has basically been, okay, how do we organize and orchestrate so that way we can actually pull these levers effectively coming into this year. So when I think about 20, 26, we have the right investments, but they are all relatively like longer term bets.
And it's been interesting because I've been kind of feeling like, when I say like long term bets, think like SEO, think like brand, think like, like those are long term bets, like, those aren't things that you invest in and like you expect to see a big lift in a month or two. These are things that like, maybe if you get lucky, you see something in three months. But I say lucky. It certainly could be that or just like really good strategic applic.
But I've been really focused on long term bets and it's not for lack of trying to find short term ones. We've, we've tried all the short term ones that we can realistically invest in.
After that it's, you know, you like, depending on the business and like the market that you're in.
Certainly there are more things that we can test that are our finger quote short term, but they may not necessarily be in balance with a level of investment that we're willing to make. So we obviously have to, we have to weigh, okay, well, what budget do we have, what resources do we have and like, what makes sense to actually invest in. And like, we've been playing that balance basically for the last year. This year we decided, okay, you know, we, we tried it that way. And I think to be fair, like, they've been doing it that way for a while, maybe with less like strategic guidance or like expertise like on the team.
And so the last year has been me kind of seeing like, okay, this is what it looks like. Not even like necessarily a status quo because that's not true either, but like operating in the way that is familiar and seeing how that performs now this year is more about like, okay, we know that that doesn't work maybe as effectively as we'd like, so let's try bigger swings. And again, that brings us back to like the long term bets.
What's been interesting though about the short term bets is I've been kind of feeling like, man, not lost, but just like there really aren't quick wins. There aren't.
And I say that there are like quicker wins, but there's, there's Not a single thing that I feel like we can execute or do that's going to be like 10x the result.
Everything right now for us is very marginal. And I think it's going to continue to be that way until we unlock something else somewhere else. Like our big long term bets pay off. And also we unlock pricing, we also unlock activation, we also unlock product. Like there are other areas to unlock. And I, I just feel like mic marketing isn't going to see this like big explosive thing until we see an unlock in other areas.
And so I, I do feel a little bit like from like a marketing function perspective, it is a little bit, I don't want to say limited, but realistically speaking, like I know that 10x marketing doesn't necessarily mean 10x result. 10x marketing could actually be a waste of money and energy and time and space. So with that in mind, what are some of the other things that we need? And I think the, the thing that I most identified in these last few weeks was like, okay, like we're cooking on the long term bets and we have to let that cook. Right? Like that has to simmer. It's not, it's just not a rapid boil. I got one of those insta pots for two years ago for Christmas that I still haven't used until like literally like a few months ago. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best I have ever used. The instant pot is amazing. It is.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: I got one recently too and it's awesome.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Oh my God, Kim. It makes stock in like minutes. Like I'm like shook.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: I don't make stock in there. I should do that.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Oh my God, 30 minutes. You can have the best luxurious, silky stock you've ever had in 30 minutes. Because you know, it's a pressure cooker. Right? All but to say everything we're investing in not. These are not instant pot, pressure cooker things. And that's okay.
I think it's different. You know, we're like, we have a lot of competitors. The market's a bit, a little bit more mature. It is expected to grow. So I expect to see more competitors. But all that means to me is like, all that says to me is like, okay, like there aren't probably a whole lot of like instant pot, pressure cooker type stuff you can do. All of this is like slow, like smoker slow braising slow, like Vietnamese pho broth slow. Like it takes 24 hours to make that broth and you can't speed that up. You know what I mean?
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: So yeah, that's. That's kind of where I've been at, but I guess I lost my train of thought. But, like, the thing I've been thinking about the most is what does the team most need from me right now?
And I. I've been kind of. I've been feeling this.
It's like a little Spidey sense that tingles. It's like, oh, the. Something's changed. Things have changed. And I am noticing that these are coming up more often. And. And what it really is, is like, I've got to step more into, like, a storytelling CMO and not just a growth cmo, if that makes any sense. You know, we have a. Our team is.
We have a mix of experiences and expertise levels.
We have some who are more experienced, like, on the SaaS marketing side, and we have some who are more experienced on, like, the industry side, but maybe not as expert, not as experienced, like on SaaS growth or SaaS marketing or marketing in general. And so we have a mixed team in terms of experience level and expertise.
And I think the thing I've been seeing the most right now is like, oh, they. They really need me to tell more stories.
They need me to build a couple more decks and, like, really help them visualize not just, like, vision, but, like, what does marketing excellence look like? That's what it is that. And maybe that's actually the term that I haven't quite been able to put my finger on. But, like, I think we're now becoming a center of excellence.
That's the transition I'm feeling is how do we become a center of excellence for marketing, but also for the brand and also our place in the industry?
And that's not a muscle I've had to flex much, I'll be honest. Like, I haven't had to flex that muscle a whole lot.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Right. Because it's been more about. There's work in front of me to do, and it's clear, and we got to do that.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: There have been very clear strategic priorities and initiatives.
This one is. Is one that, like, I wouldn't make an okr around because really it's me, the executive, who needs to show up this way.
Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: What does that look like?
[00:09:03] Speaker A: So when I think about becoming a center of excellence, I mean, a lot of this. I mean, it has to come. I mean, I say it has to come. It doesn't have to always literally come this way, but traditionally speaking, it comes top down. So executives decide, okay, we need to become this center of excellence or whatever, and what that typically Means is that the executives have to do more work and spend more energy around really educating and coaching the team around some set of pillars or strategic initiatives or objectives or whatever.
And really the best way to do this, I find like is, is demonstrating through leadership, is being a leader in this and you kind of taking the first step. I think about it like, I, I, and I haven't spent much time thinking about how I'm going to structure this because I do think that there has to be some structure here. Like, I don't think you can just be like, okay, I'm just gonna call a meeting and build a deck and call it a day. I think that there are very clear gaps that I need to kind of sit down and like really think about closing. And then thinking about, okay, what's the unlock to help people close that gap for themselves?
Is that a couple of presentations or meetings or whatever. And then also too, like, I, I think some of the best CEOs and executives in the world, they have their talking points and they say them over and over and over and over and over again.
And they don't just repeat themselves a bajillion times. They also are constantly demonstrating like an. And I don't really do a whole lot of demonstrating right, like in the traditional sense. I'm not like building PowerPoint decks and like taking people through talks and like, you know, like, I'm like that type of, I hate to say, like, CMO work, but I'm not doing that type of thought leadership internally. And I think that is like low key, like what my team needs right now. And I think that they're going to need it for not just like a short time. I think it's going to be probably for like the next one or two years. Like, I think it's going to be like a, until we change our story, so to speak. Like, this is the story that I need to be telling for a while. And off the top of my head I'm trying to think of like, off the top of my head, like, what gaps, like, are those for us? The first is positioning and messaging. And this is something that our CEO has identified as. I think he really wants this.
I don't wanna say perfect buttoned up, but I do think we all kind of notice a discrepancy in how everyone describes the product and also how everyone kind of like talks about, you know, clearing the path of like, okay, like, why would you choose our product versus the dozens of other things that you could be picking?
And I think, I think the first Gap to close is really helping people see how to tell the story. And the best way to do that is to embody it. Like, it's. To deliver that, like, directly. I think that's the first. I think there's also other things too, like storytelling about how to tell a story. I think our team, one of. One of the. One of the challenges or issues that we have is quality, like, content quality.
And so in order to close that gap, I'm going to have to show them what quality looks like and then embody that over and over and over again while also taking corrective action on stuff that's, like, doesn't pass muster yet.
And those are two things where it's like, I feel like I've been very focused on, like, the management side of marketing for the past year, and now I'm seeing we really need to start, like, build, like, internalizing and building certain skills.
And the only way to do that is for me to start telling. Doing more storytelling, like, internally, and also, like, demonstrating and of course, like, still correcting, like, the work that comes through or passes through my desk of, like, okay.
But, yeah, I think. I think that's something that's missing. And I remember I learned this, I guess, actually a demand maven. I remember we were going through. There was a time where we had, like, eight people on the team, and we were going, like, we were doing a lot of projects at once, and quality control was an issue. And I remember feeling very overwhelmed, but also feeling very, like, all these are skills that need to get embedded into people. And the only way to do that is for me to, like, do a lot more teaching and a lot more just the internal leadership side, the storytelling side, which I just wasn't really doing. Like, I do a lot of speaking and, like, webinars and podcasts, but I don't. I wasn't using those skills, like, internally. Right. And I remember starting and, like, starting to see it take root. We also had some fluctuations, though, like, in. In our projects, so we ended up, like, downsizing a little bit. But I do remember feeling that feeling of, like, oh, this needs to be a skill. Like, this needs to be a muscle that I help other people build and not just me, because otherwise it'll just be me doing it all forever.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: And that's sustainable. It's a lot of you correcting work or, you know, so now it's more allowing other people to catch their own areas where. Oh, right, this can be improved before it even comes.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And it. It helps other people level up.
And it doesn't because like, the worst thing in the world to me is like, you've got all this knowledge, you've got all these skills, you've got all of these things that people can use.
And there are always going to be skills where people aren't going to feel like, super comfortable ex, like, like exercising or even learning. Like, they're always going to be like, skills and capabilities that are like, the combination of them will always be relatively unique to you. But I, I do think, like, there are a lot of skills and capabilities though, that are very teachable and also very learnable. And the, you know, the people who get it, great. And then everyone's going to pick up different things. And I do think though that overall it's still going to make everything better. Like, it's still going to improve across the board.
But there are certain skills, though that I think are just universal, like storytelling, like being able to publicly speak and also being able to identify content quality, being able to read anything and everything that you're producing and being able to really think critically about like what is a saying and does every sentence have a job, does every word have a job? And is this actually enjoyable to read or watch or what have you? I think, like, and those are all skills, I think, that are very teachable.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: But I think, like, I think it has to start though, like with you, the leader. Like, I don't, I think it's hard to, you know, expect ics to like, individual contributors to like, come to the table with that all the time. And certainly if people do, that's a great, that's a great thing too. But like, I do think it has to be more top down. Like it's our duty and responsibility to do that.
Yeah.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: A couple things are coming to mind for me here. So one is I like what you said about the individual contributors. Not. I think that a lot of people expect everyone and if we're, we're just talking about the marketing department right now, but expect them to be able to do everything like an ic, to be able to be really smart or good at five different things or areas.
So I think this is really important because as a leader, you know, you happen to be fractional CMO now. Like, there's ways that you can help individual contributors improve in certain areas that then help the, you know, the marketing organization as a whole, or the organization
[00:16:17] Speaker A: as a whole, 100%.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: My other point, and I'm gonna, I'll pause in a minute because it could be controversial and maybe we could take it out if we need to.
So my other point is, at what point do you. So you had mentioned positioning and messaging, right?
At what point is it in my organization, if we need better positioning and messaging, do we go hire a product marketer or a content marketer? Like someone that specializes more like their sort of specialty is content.
And I say product marketer because, you know, the positioning and messaging side and maybe if they're also good at content. Right.
So at what point does a leader know when to storytell and bring certain things out of the organization to improve, or when a new hire or a different hire is better?
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I actually don't see these things as like, mutually exclusive.
I think there's a difference to me between deciding what positioning messaging should be and then the flip side to that is, and then there's making sure everyone understands it and is embodying that in their work. And I think no matter who you hire, whether it's a content person or a product marketing person, the way that you arrive at positioning and messaging, to me is a separate process from ensuring that people get it and that they, when they, every time they write copy or they create an article or they create something that they're like, oh, yeah, I remember how Asia described that or I remember how that person described it. And like, I know how to, I know how to execute this. Now I think that's very different. And I think if the product marketer is empowered and expected to do both, I think that's probably like within like their job description and like in their actual role. That's an expectation.
But if it's not, then to me, that's the responsibility of leadership. Now the product marketer or the content marketer, whoever, whoever is helping the, the team arrive at that. Well, one, it tends to be cross functional anyway. Like, it's rare that marketing just decides it and like it's just done like, usually like product has a say, sales has a say. And then there's some person ideally who's like, they're like the tiebreaker, so to speak. And like they have the final say on what it should be. And I, and I think, at least in our scenario, that's a lot of like CEO, CMO and then the other co founders. And once we arrive at like a, I don't even want to say consensus because some people don't necessarily have to agree, but they do have to fall in line.
So once we arrive at like the final iteration of it, then it's a, okay, now who's deploying this? And Whose job is it now to ensure that, now that we've decided how do we now operationalize around this and that, to me, if it's not an executive level position, it does need to be clearly communicated to the person who is going to be responsible for that. Otherwise you end up deciding positioning messaging in a black box and it doesn't actually go anywhere. Okay, like, sure, like you change the headline on your homepage, but then like, does it show up in your emails? Does it show up when your customer or success person talks to every new prospect? Does it show up in your demos? Does it show up like everywhere else, like all the other different customer touch points? And I think that's the, that's the part that I think we're doing a better job now of making sure it's getting executed, but I don't think we've done a good enough job yet of doing that storytelling to have people kind of like, internalize the meaning of it, if that makes any sense.
Because there's a difference. Right?
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: So that is good clarity. And also then at an executive level, the sales team needs the similar storytelling. And so that customer success and that storytelling needs to be aligned across leadership.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: Huh? Absolutely. And then, you know, I'm, I'm fractional cmo, so my jurisdiction really is marketing. And I'm, I'm starting to expand a bit more into like, more like overall business growth. But you know, our head of sales in our, our head of product, both co founders. Yeah, like, that's something too that we're like, we're, we're working through. Okay. Like, marketing has clear next steps for like, how we're gonna start to operationalize around this. But the same has to also be true for the other touch points. Right. Cause like our, like, we don't oversee sales, but we, we can make suggestions and make recommendations. But apart from that. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, like that's, and that's a little bit part of the tension. I don't even want to say tension, but just like, really, CEO should really be like, kind of hammering it on all of us really, and be like, okay, I feel good about marketing, you know, taking this, but part of the CEO's job is also to make sure that like the others are too.
And, and that's why I think CEO has a really tough position just in general, like, not even like at our, at our, at the company that I'm working with or talking about, but like, in general, like the CEO has, has a tough position to be in because they, they really should be kind of hammering all of us, so to speak, on like, this is mission critical. Like, it's really, really, really important that this doesn't fall apart once it moves to another team or department or whatever.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: But yeah, I, yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, and positioning messaging is one of the things I'm, I'm also kind of like, oh, you know, we really need a better, more solid foundation on my team, at least specifically for like, what does quality look like?
So when we write content or create content, I should say, because we do different formats and things, when we make graphics, when we make, when we write copy, how do we know that this is quality? What does great and good look like and what does not good look like and how do we articulate that? And part of, you know, I'm, I might be making my job a little bit harder because the only way to teach this is to do like the storytelling piece, but also to like, it's the management piece. Right. It's the, okay, I'm going to review everything that gets publicly published.
Anything that is customer facing, I've got to review and give feedback. And I, I do that. But I would say I don't do it to the level I think that I need to be.
And this is, this will get tricky because if people aren't building the muscle, then. And then we end up with the problem of everything is on my desk and I'm now the bottleneck. And, you know, the team isn't actually improving on understanding like what this looks like. Right. So that's where it gets tricky. And I, this is the, this is the game that I have to play, which is, it's an operational challenge, but it's also like a.
No, I guess it is more operational than anything. It's because it's both process and it's also people.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: And this may be a little bit of a tangent, but I was reading about people that, how they're using AI and so whatever is in your head, Asia that you're using to do that, instead of just having the AI give you the right output, whatever output you have, you're having the AI score it based on your framework that you have behind the scene. So everyone can now get almost like you're grading it, but it's rating every area between a 1 and a 5 and maybe then kind of showing how you get to.
So I've found that interesting as a way to be more efficient or improve processes like this.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: As you, of course, you need to have what Those things are. And over time, as you're storytelling, you're probably feeding all that into the AI and feeding the framework.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Totally.
Yeah. I have been thinking about, is there a way to do this faster and could we use AI to do it? What would I need to build to make that effective? And like, what part specifically would I need support with from AI? And that could certainly be one of them, which is before I review it and it comes to my desk, maybe it gets analyzed first or.
Yeah, like there's, there's, there are things that can be done, I think, to certainly help with that part of the process.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: What I liked about the score is that it's telling you so it's clearly stating what it is. And you could even say, like, okay, the AI got that wrong.
But that scoring is kind of a cool way to sort of have a layer of management there that's automated.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So, yeah, that's a bit where my head has been at. There's something correlated to this that I also, I've been kind of feeling like.
And I think like, it's correlated to a topic I've talked about before, which is transitioning from founder to CEO.
And it's correlated to like, the maturation process of executives in various departments. So whether it's founder to CEO or it's head of marketing to cmo, or VP of marketing to cmo, or it's head of product to chief Product officer, head of sales to chief of sales, or CRO, either one. And in some cases, like CRO, like traditionally would see over marketing and sales. And it's this really interesting transition of like going from you're managing the tactics of your department to you are overseeing the strategic direction of it. You're. But also like the operationalization. Yeah, but yeah, I think it's. It's like the process that you have to go through to operationalize around the inputs that you receive and like, what is the output you're trying to achieve. And you really do see the function the way that the CEO sees it, which is this is.
This is a, a part of a larger story. And how does your part contribute and what can you do to make it more efficient? What do you need from others?
And also there's that like within the framework and context of your business and your organization, but then there's also that plus the rest of the market. And I think that's where VPs of marketing end up leveling up to be that more of that cmo, which is you're not just looking at the efficiency of your department anymore or even like if you're maybe more like director level. You're not just looking at the efficiency of like the handful of channels or the programs or what have you that you're running. You are now zooming up and further out into seeing your part of like your department as part of a larger story.
Excuse me. And also, of course it's efficiency, but then also, where are you headed? What do you need? And then also too, like, I do think a great executive really understands, like what do I need to do different and who do I need to be to support my team, support the business and then also make sure that we're positioning ourselves well in the market and embodying our brand values. And I would say like, this is probably an ep. This is definitely an episode in of itself. You know, there, there are six primary functions in marketing, give or take a couple depending on like your business. But there's the easy stuff. Like there's demand generation, there's product marketing, there's life cycle marketing, which speaks more to like emails and like customer touchpoints, customer journey.
But one of the things that I, I historically have not spent a ton of time and energy like exercising has been brand.
And brand means a lot of different things to different people. Some people think of it as like, oh, just like the colors and fonts that you're using. Others are like, it's that plus like that's brand design. But then there's also like your, like your mission, your values. What does this company actually care about and how do you ensure that you are embodying that at all? As you know, how do you, how do you live that brand experience over and over and over again, repeatedly, predictably. And so much so that customers and everywhere. Exactly. And like that customers actually recognize that about you and prospects recognize that about you. And that that's something that I haven't had to flex as much. I, you know, you, you typically don't hear about like hiring brand marketers until you're well into the millions. Like you're like, I don't know, at least 10 million. At least 10. You just don't hear about hearing like, you know, head of, head of brand until then and even then, sometimes beyond sometimes not until like 20, 25 million, 30 million. And some companies get away with it, like really not like they're like almost like basically publicly traded and they don't have like a head of brand really. So it like the scale is, is, it slides all over the place. It's, it's a mess but traditionally speaking, like the head of brand, if it's not the cmo, it's the CEO. Like and if you're, if you don't see yourself as CEO, it's you, the founder. Like you, you are embodying brand basically. And you've gotta figure out how to make sure that that's clear across all of your departments. And a lot of people don't ever think about it, to be honest, until they're like well into the millions of ARR.
And that tracks and make sense. There are other things to think about, but it's just interesting cause like I'm feeling that need sooner, like as fractional cmo, I'm kind of like, you know, what brand actually that might be the cutting edge for us. And like there are so many competitors that might actually be the lever that we pull to cut through the noise.
But it's really tough to do that cheaply.
Like, it's like you like the resources that you need for that are definitely more than what you might expect.
But yeah, like I feel more of that. Like we are on the way to really having larger conversations around brand and like who are we really? And is that what people care about and how do we embody that like across all of our customer touch points? And I don't know, it's like the, it's like the fluffy, you know, fluffy brand. CMO is like not, I don't wanna say like not my forte. It's, it's just, it's a different style of cmo. And yeah, like I've never seen myself as like the baby kissing cmo. Like, you know, like the, you know what I'm talking about. Like there are just like certain CMOs are just like, oh, like their job is to handshake and to kiss babies and to make friends and influence people. That's like their whole thing, right?
Because that's honestly like what gets the job done a lot of the time. And sure there's like numbers and efficiency and stuff, but there are like, there's like a whole style of CMO that's that.
And I think for the first time ever I've been feeling the need to be. Not like literally that, but more of the like, oh, you know, I, we really aren't thinking much about brand and now I feel the need like we really should be and because that actually might be the cutting edge thing that we need that people can't compete on. Which would make sense for us because we do have a lot of. We have so many competitors. It's disgusting how many competitors we have.
Yeah. So anyway, so that's where, that's where my head has been. And it's exciting, but it's also a little scary because it's a, it's just like a different muscle to flex. It's not the demand gen muscle.
It's not the, it's a little bit the product marketing muscle. But I actually think it goes a step deeper, which is like we're, we are executing against product marketing, but now it needs to be more like I'm leveling up the team and, and also by leveling up the team, we're leveling up our marketing, which levels up everything else.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: So yeah, it's a, it's just a different space to be in.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: You mentioned at the beginning, I think he said something like, you have to be very self aware in order to recognize this. Can you talk more about that?
[00:32:16] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I, I, I, every therapist and coach and executive coach I've ever had, they've always told me like how exceedingly self aware I am.
Maybe too much actually, like, maybe sometimes it causes anxiety or, or stress that's unnecessary. I don't think that's actually always been true. I have cultivated this level of self awareness. I've built it brick by brick.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: So, meaning, sorry to cut in, but meaning like you're recognizing how you're feeling. You're tuned into your body, your emotions. Is that what you mean by self aware?
[00:32:54] Speaker A: That and also you can see outside of yourself.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Like I can see how I'm acting. I can see how this relates.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: You can see how I fit into the bigger picture.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: That and also too, I think like all of those things and it's almost like, and maybe it's spiritual. I don't know. It's actually, I have to ask like my therapist friends, like, what this actually is because they might actually say that it's also a little bit of like self actualization. You might have to be a little bit self actualized to, to do this well, but I start with self awareness because that's, that's where it always starts. Like, it starts with like, you have a very deep sense of self, self awareness. But there's also just like the, you can see your story among all of the other millions of stories and there's no judgment. Like, it's not a, it's not a, like it's not a thing to judge or to be like be overly optimistic or overly pessimistic about or even like overly positive. It's, it's, it's just like, it's very neutral but it's, it's like to me it's like you, like you can see your place in this world and you can see everyone else's place as well. And it not like, it, it not like, not in a harmful way, like more like in a balanced neutral. Almost like oh yeah, I. So for example, in my fractional CMO work, for example, I'm like. And even my client work, everywhere I'm working actually there are several moments where I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm feeling this but.
And that's a normal, valid response.
But if I were to zoom out and if I were to see it from this person's perspective and this person's perspective, but also like if I were to think about this in the global scheme of things, actually this is quite normal. And you can almost like, I had to say, like, rise above it, but you can almost be like, okay, well after, after that like level of like balancing, so to speak, it's kind of like, okay, well here's here are the choices that I can make to, to improve the situation if I can or whatever. Or even like sometimes I'm just like annoyed or frustrated about something and it's like, yeah, okay, like those are valid feelings but like you're gonna be fine, right? I don't know. Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I guess like going back to the self awareness thing though, like, yeah, I, I do think to do, to be the best version of the, of, of a leader that you can possibly be. I do think that you need a certain level of self awareness. I think you need to know when you're kind of like low key, being crazy about something or like when you're thrashing. My business coach calls it thrashing. Like thrashing is basically just like you're like trying to shake trees and like you're spending a lot of energy doing a whole lot of nothing basically. Or like you're wasting a lot of energy over nothing and like it actually is not that crucial, especially not in the grand scheme of things. Especially not in the history of this business. Especially not, you know, like again like you can see your story and you can see all the other millions of stories and, and you can actually be like, oh, this is not necessarily like a unique experience. This is actually very human. And like there are things that we can do to improve what we're doing now to be fair, if you're in a toxic environment, your level of self awareness at best is going to help protect you and that's about it. But like, and hopefully you can leave a toxic environment. But if you're not necessarily, like, if it's not a toxic environment, if it's something that can actually be very mutually beneficial and positive, then I think, like, the leader can create the most and best possible change, both for themselves and for others.
And I think it's really hard to do good executive work if you're not super aware. Now, I will say tech and leadership in general, for whatever it's worth. Like, it attracts a lot of psychos.
So, like, there are people who succeed despite all of these things. However, I do think, though, like, being a good leader, especially for your team, being a good steward in general of whatever it is that you're trying to represent in your organization, I think you have to be self aware. I think you have to have a good dial on when your ego and feelings are kind of getting in the way versus when it makes sense to like it. There are times where it makes sense for me to throw my weight around, for example, and it's not always something I'm comfortable with, but I have to be very tuned into. Like, okay, is this the time for me to do that or is this not the time?
You know what I mean? Like, yep, I don't know if that makes any sense to folks listening, but it's a very.
And I'm not gonna say I get it perfect every time. Like, I think that there are times when I probably should have stomped my feet about something because it probably would have saved us a lot of energy or money or whatever. And then there are times where I certainly could have been more aggressive about something, but I chose not to because I just was like, I don't know if this is the right time. And that was actually the right thing to do.
Like, that it was correct for me to not, like, push too hard on something because actually it wasn't gonna pan out anyway. And it's like they're. They're like, certainly I have made my mistakes. Thankfully they have not been extremely expensive mistakes.
That's the best part about it, I think. But yeah, like, I think it does take, like, again, like, just a really deep sense of self and understanding too. Like, how much of this is driven by your need to be right or your need to be seen in a certain light versus, like, what's actually the best for the business. Like, you have to see your story and the other stories.
It can't just be your story all the time, right? Otherwise, like, you just don't. I don't know, I don't, I don't think you're a good like, steward at that point. Like, you're just kind of like every man out there for himself. But there, and there are some environments where to be fair, like, you do have to be that way, which is sad to me, but they are out there, they exist. And it really sucks. And I really hope that people, if that doesn't serve you, that you don't stay there for very long, that you find something better. My dream would 100% to be a place that people can work for or with and like not feel that way. Like, it feel like you are making a difference and, and we, and like the organization appreciates that and like pays it back in kind. Right. That would be the dream, but not always possible for everybody. But to work there, I mean, right?
[00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah. The lesson there is, yeah, this doesn't count in a toxic environment.
Otherwise.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: I, I worked for a toxic environment and no amount of self awareness that I had made me more successful at that job. But what it did do was it definitely helped. And I had to get therapy actually because of this. But I remember, like, I had to realize that I am not my job and also I am not the company I work for.
And I really had to separate my sense of self from my identity as like a person who works, if that makes any sense. And I had to realize that, like, those are actually two different parts of who, like, what makes up what makes Asia. And, and there are also like a bajillion other things that make up Asia. Like, it's not just all demand maven or just all tech sass, blah, blah, blah, you know, the stuff that you have to like, explain to your mom and grandma or whatever and they're like, I don't get it. I don't understand what you do. I'm sorry.
It's fair. That's very fair. Sometimes I don't either, actually.
But yeah, like, I, I've worked in a toxic environment and a toxic culture and yeah, my self awareness didn't necessarily save me in that role, but it saved me in life and if that makes sense, saved me in life. Like, I eventually learned, like, oh, I'm not the paycheck I make. I'm actually so much more than that. And, and also too, like, I think my self awareness helped me realize that whatever was going on with that company had nothing to do with me and it wasn't a reflection on me at all. Right. And that, and that took a long time to heal. So yeah, if you're In a toxic environment. This is not. This episode will probably help from, like, the grand scheme of things, but maybe not, like, directly in your role.
Maybe that's a whole other episode we can record. But. Yeah, but if that's not. If you are not necessarily in a toxic environment, if you have the autonomy or the influence or what have you, then I. I think, like, these are good skills slash, like, muscles to build for yourself as an executive leader.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: This reminds me a little bit of. I know we talked about Lenny's podcast on our last episode, how there's so much good content and we don't know where to start, when we're behind on it. But he interviewed last month, Dr. Becky, and she is a child psychologist, and she writes books, like, parenting books. But it was so, so interesting to me, and I've looked at, like, being a parent, have looked at some of her stuff. So I listened to this one. But there was a lot of cool, just, like, correlations between the idea of, like, when you're a parent, you're kind of like a leader to your kids. And there's so many, like, teachings and psychology that Dr. Becky has that translates directly into the workplace and being a leader in the workplace. And some of what you were saying reminded me of that. It's a good episode, I think, also if you're. If you're a leader or not a leader in a company
[00:42:36] Speaker A: that is. I feel like I've seen that episode, but I just didn't listen to it because I was like, is this gonna make me ugly cry?
[00:42:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it might not. It's really good.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: It was okay.
[00:42:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it was not heavy.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: That's actually good to hear.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was just really interesting. And you could. You can get a lot of good takeaways. Not being a parent, just being an adult in the workplace, just about how to act and how to think about, like, you were saying, like, yourself, but also putting yourself in other people's shoes. And he brought up radical candor, which I know you're a fan of. So they talked a little bit about that, and, yeah, it was good.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, I'm gonna have to listen to it now. It reminds me of some of the things that I grew up with. Like. And I'll. It might not actually be correlated at all to this, but hearing you talk about it makes me think of, like, mantras that I grew up with that were instilled in me from a very young age. So, like, my grandmother, for example, she was like my second mom. Like, she was so much More than just a grandma. She was like, literally like my second mother. And I remember something that she taught all of us. Like, my whole, My mom, her siblings, my cousins, was always leave a place better than when you left it.
And that has never left me. And I, I think about that, like, when I think about, like, my fractional CMO work and client work as well. Like, I'm always like, okay, did I, did I leave this place better than when I left it, than when I started? And it doesn't feel right to me to, to not accomplish that in some kind of way, even if it's small.
But I, you know, obviously, like, I go for big. So I'm like, okay, well, how do we, like, make a big change? Like, how do we, like, really adjust this team's thinking or the way that they're trying to accomplish their goals or how like. Or like, where they're headed? Yeah, I, I really, I've internalized that my whole life, and it shows up. Some people would call it like, idealism. And this again is me seeing my story, but then also seeing all the other stories and how, like, idealism isn't always possible. It's a very American, very capitalist way of thinking and not always possible or realistic or all the other things.
But I cannot help but feel like if I do nothing else, if I help this person in some small way, that that's worth it to me. And I think, yeah, that's a guiding light that I have. I'm curious if she touches on like,
[00:44:54] Speaker B: yeah, well, I love that because, well, so you were given a gift by receiving that as a child, and you are now taking that into your adult life, which Dr. Becky is trying to help parents do. Like, our children are going to be the people in the workforce.
But let's say someone didn't have leadership like that as a child, and now they're showing up in the workspace and they're being defensive and angry. You as a leader can think.
I am seeing that this person is being ridiculous. And I had the benefit of getting this advice from my grandmother and my mom and. But this person probably didn't. That's probably why they're acting like that. And if you're approaching a conversation in the workplace with that frame of mind like that, and so that's kind of what they touched on.
[00:45:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. I'm definitely gonna listen to it. I feel like that I'll probably be like, nodding profusely and like, also reflecting and getting misty eyed about, like, oh, man, what are all the things that like, impacted me.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And also probably like your self awareness can be in large part. I mean, for you, you're an adult, you're working on yourself. Right. So you gotta. You have credit, but also you can credit some of your upbringing, it sounds like.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah, for sure.
Well, anyway, thank you for letting me talk to you about all things I'm thinking about with like, yeah, not even, I guess, like becoming a better executive, but also leaning more into storytelling and leaning more into like embodying brand and how do I level up the team and all those things. Like, those are all parts of like the.
The process, right? Yeah.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: And I like this episode because this. We talked a lot about some soft skills and kind of what you're thinking about that's really. It's hard to put into a process. We talk a lot about just growth and different playbooks. Right. With some of our past episodes. But I really like this for kind of the softer side of things that I think is important for founders and
[00:46:46] Speaker A: leaders, 100% especially too. Like, as you know, I have maybe the next episode we do will be about like founder to CEO again. I have an episode about this.
Have more thoughts especially, especially working with more founders who are making that transition and how like weird and difficult it is because you're literally like.
It's like you don't know what your job is, but it's just because, like, you don't know what the next level looks like and you don't know that that's what the team needs from you right now.
And that, like I said, like, I'll. I'll have more thoughts on this. I'll go back to this episode. But yeah, like so much of growth lovers, a big one is people and like operations and also how every person contributes in their way and also to like, how you think about shepherding these people and like leading these people.
I think a lot about that. About, like, like, if you're, if you're the commander, if you're the general, are you leading your troop to success or failure? And like, and I say failure. It's never finite failure. It's usually like, okay, like, you take a few hits and hopefully you come back. And we always try to play infinite games in business. We don't ever try to play finite games in business.
Um, but all that to say, like, yeah, like, if you're the general, like, how are you leading your troops to win? And I think about that a lot actually, like, especially now. Especially now. So that's the season I'm in is like okay, General Asia. Like, how. How am I leading the marketing team to success?
And, like, what are. What are my gaps? Like, what are. What are my shortcomings that I can, like, close and help others close as well?
[00:48:22] Speaker B: There's that self awareness. Well done.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Yeah, there. I know. Right there. Like, always, like, what do I suck at?
What am I really sucking at right now? And I'm like, I have a list. Like, I know what they are. Like, I'm not like, unaware of them, unfortunately, sometimes, but I do. Yeah, I do. I do wonder. I. I'd be curious to. Maybe this is, like, a good prompt to, like, do some research on, like, leaders who are more self aware versus not. Do they succeed more or do they actually suffer more because they're like, dang, I suck at these things.
I know that there are gaps, but how do I close them? Or whatever. I'm curious now. This is going to trigger a little bit of a research.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: Yeah. That is interesting.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: All right, cool. Thank you, Kim. Thanks for listening, y'. All.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Thanks, Asia.
[00:49:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll catch you on the next one.
